Perhaps we could ask Redline Server which runs FOXs to rotate between all three Formula cars? Would be nice to get some Racing going on in the F08 and the F1 car

Quote from BWX232 :

In a game, you do not have the advantage of G-Forces as you do in real life, so you need more audible cues form the sim so you know what is going on with your car.

I understand and know what you mean, the Sound compensate for the lesser input the Sim Driver gets from the Program. Would you prefer the Sim to have louder tyre Sounds as they are supposed to be? I would prefer if the Sim trys to reproduce the Sound as 'authentic' as it possibly could be without taking care of the "lack of other inputs for the driver". It's all about how do you like a Sim to be in this aspect.

Quote from BWX232 :

Also- the "way it sounds" now on your soundcard and speakers with your ears Is NOT the way it sounds for anyone else.

Thats just what I said The Sound is different on different Hardware. Thats unfortunate and should be kept to a minimum difference. However if the difference is so much that its getting too much, than i would understand the need for these Options. But at the moment, it doesnt seem to be a case in any other Sim?

Quote from BWX232 :

That is contradicting yourself.. unless LFS is tested on all hardware combinations that exist, it is impossible to say what is an "unrealistic driving aid".. As it is a lot of people can't hear a LOT of the sounds inside the cockpit, but someone in chase view or "bumper cam" view can hear a lot more.. So people in chase view should be rewarded with better and "easier to hear" sounds? That makes no sense at all..

Frankly I dont care if some view would be "rewarded" or not, I only drive in cockpit view and the Sounds should get as accurate as possible. Thats the more important thing for my enjoyment of a Sim, I do not want compromises "for the lack of G-Force inputs".

Quote from BWX232 :

-plus if you think adjusting sound levels is a cheat, then you better not let people use CHASE VIEW, and everyone better have the same exact INPUT DEVICE (same WHEEL- set to same ROTATION and FF)- everyone better be playing on the same exact MONITOR and everyone better use the exact same FIELD OF VIEW.. everyone better be playing with the same VIDEO CARD and everyone better have the same FRAMERATE. Do you see why that argument is totally unrealistic? There comes a point were when most people say things like "the sound is crap" and "it's giving me a headache" and stuff like that, that something is very wrong.

Arguing against more user control over the sounds makes no sense if you think the problem through to the end result, especially if your argument is that it gives an unfair advantage.

I think its pretty obvious that if you give the Player a big amount of Options over the Sound Volumes that it can produce unfair advantages.

Right, we do not have the same Framerate, same Wheel or the same Video card, but allowing a big amount of Sound Options to the Player should be decided on its Pros and Cons for the Sim regardless of decisions on other Topics of the Sim.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Mon 25 Dec 2006, 19:21.

I agree with you on everything except for Point 2) and 5) and I'm also in the camp who thinks the Sounds are better, but could be better still.

I dont recall hearing the tyres scrub and squeal Sound alot when I was in a Race car. In most cars in LFS you have a big engine and a Racing Exhaust, with the Speed your going, Wind noises and the sounds of the opponent cars you hardly hear your tyre scrubbing and occasionally loudly squealling. The way it is now it seems a slight bit too much tyre Sounds.

But Opinions differ of course and it might sound different threw everybodys Hardware but I would say in my mind the tyre sounds are still a little bit too loud.

I dont think People should be able to change different aspects of the Sound easily because it is better if all drivers hear roughly the same Sounds aspect volumes from the Sim.
Even though different Hardware produces different sound it should not be able to raise for example the tyre sounds only to a unrealistic and driving-aid point of level.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Mon 25 Dec 2006, 02:17.

Quote from Arturo Pereira :

Hi George

Well, I can´t talk about LFS because I do not have the time to drive it frequently. Real life plus league management plus the GPLPS plus the GPLmods Team activities do not let me dedicate time to other carsims than GPL (mainly) and NR2003, GTP mod mostly. I tried GTR and rFactor this year but I am really involved with carsims that, as a frustatred racing driver from the 60s , let me drive the cars and tracks I like the most, so there goes my time and dedication.
I am not saying the modern cars or tracks are worst than the old ones. It is just that I do not like them. If you make me choose between a 1967 Ferrari 312 F1 and a Ferrari F1 2006, well, you know the answer, don´t you ?
Anyway, after being in contact with modders that are working with other car sims, I think that one must be very careful before stating a car sim is better than other one, just because the physics´ engine is newer. FOr instance, GPL has around 120 parameters for each of the 7 cars + around 30 additional parameter for 5 types of tyres. Afaik, rFactor has about 500 parameters. In theory, rFactor seems to be much more advanced than GPL, but the problem is that, to make realistic physics you need to know real life parameters, which could be a problem is we talk about cars from the 60s, even from the 70s and 80s. Those parameters include chassis, suspensions, gearboxes, differentials, tyres, engine torque/power curves, etc, all with enough detail to match the parameters you need to fill in to get decent physics. The problem just get worst if you need to fill in 500 parameters instead of 120, so there are chances you may need to make too many guesses and spend lots of time without getting the proper handling/performance.
This is not about just getting similar laptimes at the same track. You need to know top speeds at certain tracks, you need to keep tyre temps below certain values, you need to know how the tyres used i.e. in 1967 really worked, which will have a decisive influence in the design of the suspensions. So, if you are working with a car sim that simulates a modern F1 car, I would say that it is almost useless to simulate a 1967 F1 car, unless you are ready to spend countless hours/days/months/weeks, or even years, looking for data and testing, not to mention the graphics´ work, and even in this case, the results may not be the right ones.
So I would say that, if you would want to mod some 60s or pre-60s racing car, for the moment, GPLhas the best engine. Newer than that, probably rFactor or GTR2/GTL. In any case, you need some historical tracks to test the physics. Otherwise, it could be just a theorical exercise.

I can only agree and if somebody reading this want to give GPL a try you can download the Demo here.

But dont forget when driving it for the first time these cars were driven back in 1967 when F1 cars had no wings at all, 400 hp on tyres that were so hard that they lasted for a couple of Races sometimes. But these cars were a pleasure to drive and the tracks the ultimate challenge and part of Racing History.

I also dont think the amount of parameters make or break a Sim. Its the Physic Engine, its very comprehensible in LFS aswell as GPL.

Quote from TagForce :

They don't race LFS as it doesn't allow them to be 'aliens' because of the vastly superior physics?

Then again, for Team Redline (not to be confused with LFS's Redline Racing) it might just be pressure from their Sponsor (BRD, for those that don't know). They need a bigger audience, so they stay away from the really small communities like LFS.

EDIT: I know for a fact that Greger does in fact have an S2 license, and has done some racing in LFS.

I dont know Greger Huttus reason for not Racing LFS in a League and maybe the answer to your question is different for each 'Alien' you ask. But I think one of the main reason could also be the lack of real tracks and cars.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Mon 25 Dec 2006, 01:55.

When watching a Replay in LFS it shows you the car in the TV Mode in a total view. The car takes most of the Picture, this is good when watching a Highlight compilation Video. When watching a battle or looking at the line the car is taking threw the corner the view is far too close up on the car.

There is a Option currently to Zoom using the CTRL+Arrow key but the zoom is mostly inwards and only a tiny bit out.

Because there is no Spectator view available I would suggest increasing the Zoom Out function to show the car + quite a bit more of the track showing up.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Mon 25 Dec 2006, 01:07.

Hello Arturo Pereira, welcome to this Forum , how do you, as a long time GPLer think about LFS? Do you drive it regularly too or only GPL?

On a Simulations drivers harddisk there should always be space for both excellent Programs.

I would even think from a Sim Experience point of view GPL and LFS are closer to each other than all other Sims compared with LFS.

In both Sims, LFS and even today still in GPL the Physics engine is Superb. You can jump easily from GPL to LFS, because the behaviour of the car is so comprehensible. If your fast in GPL, you will be fast in LFS and experience in LFS definitely helps when you start out in GPL too.

LFS and GPL have a very good Multiplayer Mode together with NR2003. The Replay Mode is also very good in both Sims. And with these things added I think every LFS driver can have a very nice time driving GPL and the other way arround aswell.

LFS and GPL are close to another and defintely a try worth if you owe one of them.

Thanks to GPLs huge community support you can make the Sim sound nice and look very good, there are tons of real tracks to explore, but some aspects of it run a little short because it came out in 1998, so I think a comparison of a 8 year old Program with a new one that is constantly improved cannot bring out much. A comparison between LFS and NR2003 would be more valuable, or one with the iRacing Software when it comes out.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Sun 24 Dec 2006, 14:50.

Some people should recognise that listening to a F1 car or any other Race car on TV or a Video sounds nothing like you do hear it as a spectator or as a driver. And its not just about the volume.

I have 3 Pedals but not the G25, its alot of fun with the H Gate Shifter but due to the workings under braking and occasional misshifts it is of course slower than 2 Pedals and F1-Shifting.

Using driving Aids like Automatic Clutch or Tip Tronic Shifting on some cars should slow you down quite alot more, so that driving Aids are not faster then driving in Simulation Mode. Hopefully future Updates will include a slight disadvantage for the cars using driving aids for the sake of fairness.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Fri 22 Dec 2006, 19:27.

Nice Update thanks alot

This Test Patch Offensive is going very good Scawen. No Problems at all, the Sound is overall alot better and I do think the tyres Sound volume is better than before, I think it was too loud before. I would also like to think that Wind noises are supposed to be louder.

I dont know if this can be added in the short term of the Test Patch Paths, but seeing as the function already exists it might not be too much of coding added an uneducated guess would say. I'm talking about the Zoom function in the Replay Mode when viewing in TV view, with the CTRL + Arrow keys it is possible to zoom, but the amount of zooming out is very small.
It would be nice to see the Track aswell in the Replay Mode, and not the car in a total view, so I would like to Zoom out more than it is currently possible with the CTRL-Arrow Keys command. Perhaps this could be added to the Test Patches along the way

+1 would definitely like to Race a NASCAR or Craftsman Truck type Stock Car, but on a good Oval Track.

A Oval that has some braking too, something like the Indianapolis Track would be best I think. Short Tracks would be a Mess for the General Public and KY Oval is already a Flat Out Oval.

Thanks Becky and Highsider9, I have tried Shift-U and I was able to follow the car with but the view is strange that way. But I could set some nice Spectator View Watching Position which was a cool view too.

I couldnt somehow "set" some Shift U Viewpoints at Spectator view Positions and let them change when watching the Replay accordingly to the cars place?

I have also tried the CTRL Arrow keys but it seems mostly able to Zoom in but not much out if one desires to get a bigger picture... oh well maybe this could find its way into a new LFS Version

The TV-Replay Mode shows a total view of the car, I would like to zoom out so that I could see the car and the track aswell. At the moment every camera zooms in so much that its hardly possible to see the line your driving threw the corner and Battles are not pretty watching when the camera gives just a huge Picture of one car.

So is it possible to zoom out all TV cameras?

How do you know for sure? What will Patch V focus on?

Personally I wish to see a Update of the LFS Clutch in one of the V Patches.

Any chances for that coming about this time around?

I had a go now in the BF1, FOX and the XFG and I like the new Sounds more then in past versions. Sound is richer now.

Quote from BWX232 :

I am talking about the kind of control that lets me raise the volume of the the tire skid sound to the loudest thing there is, and lower the volume of everything else so that all I ever hear is the tire skid sounds.. The same for the gear whine, the BOV sound, the Turbo sound, all of them.. Make it so we can fine tune it, without such restrictive limits. All that does is make is sound horrible on our particular systems (because of the locked down volume level adjustment) without the ability to "fix" it.

However the Sounds of LFS progresses, I hope that letting the player have that much control over the Sound Settings will not make it to the final Version.

Sounds should be roughly the same for everybody, for the sake of fairness players shouldnt be able to set the tire skid sounds louder than usual because that would give them an advantage as they hear the tyres grip limit far too clear than compared to somebody running the standard Sound Settings which than has more volume in engine sounds or wind noises.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Tue 19 Dec 2006, 13:39.

Blackhole Motorsports is offering the download to Test Patch U32, as Test Patches can contain Bugs and are not finished Versions it might be wise to talk to Blackhole Motorsport to not put LFS Test Patch Versions for download because some people might get stuck on an unstable Version if Blackhole doesnt stay up to date. It seems Blackhole occasionally puts a Test Patch Version for download on there site.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Tue 19 Dec 2006, 06:31.

Quote from jtr99 :

+1.

I think this option worked extremely well in NR2003 and I don't see why it wouldn't work in LFS. I agree with Sinbad that you would probably want to exempt a few settings from the "fixed" condition, such as brake pressure and max wheel turn settings, but I think the principle of a level playing field (as an option, of course) is great.

+1 for the Option to fix the setup. It's actually pretty fun and can produce great Races as we know from other Sims.

Sorry if I missed a point but why is it not possible to get the Results straight out of LFS World?

There are the Race Results, all Lap times from every driver and from every Race, thats all one would need or not? It can be easily exported one would think?

Does the Soundsystem that works in LFS has the Potential to sound more accurate than the Sample-Sounds Engine?

I understand the idea and goal of LFS Sound System and find it interesting. But how far away are we from a System that not only generates Sounds 'on the fly', but also actually sounds as good or better than samples-generated sound?

I slow down and let the poor guy pass me if I have caused an accident.

Writing "sorry" during a Race is unrealistic

Quote from lalathegreat :

So funny too see everyone emotional. I think if u want to prove a point you should list hard facts though.

If you feel LFS has been giving content for the past year, you should list it instead of saying stuff like you won't be missed and all that.

what some of you have to understand is we all play LFS for different reasons; and we all would like to see LFs go in different ways.

I Dream of the day that LFS has a maximum of 10,000 people a day and there is a wide variety of combos used. I mean thats my main problem with LFS not enough playing(dead). and there must be a reason?

1.Why are there more Demo people playing than licensed?
2.Why are they 13,000 Members of the forum but only 800 playing online at a time
3.I often seen post that that LFS (s1+s2) sold 20k~30k where are those other 19k people

can someone answer those questions?

The level of ignorance is amazing. If LFS is dead, than what about rFactor, NR2003 or GPL ? They are deader-than-dead, and what about netkarPro, the deathiest Sim ever?

If you start to get annoyed from LFS because of "only" 800 Players online at the same time, please go check for yourself another Simulation and than come back here and say how many drivers you met.

If you can stay a night awake and race NASCAR Racing 2003 you will see 400 players MAXIMUM even on the Weekends. That Game sold several hundred thousand times. And is still rated the best NASCAR Simulation in the US. And NASCAR has a huge Fanbase.

Thats half of the driver Pool that LFS has. On to GPL VROC and IGOR, your lucky if you see 100 people Racing online during any time.

You will find around 300 - 400 People racing rFactor Online, far behind LFS in Online Racing Popularity, even if you switch to GTR2 you will maybe find between 400 - 600 People online, and that is a Game that every Joe Average can buy at his local Game Store.

What else is there in the Sim Racing World? netKar Pro... you will have a hard time finding any People Racing Online outside of the GPC League.

Quote :

1.Why are there more Demo people playing than licensed?

erm... because its for free? And what does that has to do with anything?

Quote :

2.Why are they 13,000 Members of the forum but only 800 playing online at a time

What are you tryieng to suggest with these numbers? That there should be alot more people Online? As you try to find a answer to this question please also try to discover why there has been 50.000 copies of GPL been sold, but there has never been more than 200 drivers online at the same time? Thats just how it is

Are you tryieng to imply with that question, that LFS is not popular?

Do you think 800 Players online every day is a to low number for a Racing Simulation? Please, you must have played LFS to much if you think that. Start up another Sim and go Online, you will see that the Racing Simulation Genre is a very small one, and that 800 Players Online every night is a huge Number for this Genre.

Quote :

3.I often seen post that that LFS (s1+s2) sold 20k~30k where are those other 19k people

Perhaps playing something else for a change? If you would have played something else you would have known how much 800 Players online is for a Racing Simulation.

Last edited by George Kuyumji, Fri 15 Dec 2006, 19:42.

This is awesome!